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Burying the Red Apple

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Armenia today celebrated International Women’s Day in pretty much the same way it always does. As a patriarchal society, women are expected to dress up and men present them with flowers. Forget talk about women’s rights and equality, although one small group of activists from Armenia and the Diaspora had other ideas. Instead of observing the day in the traditional way, they were going to hand out leaflets informing women of their rights in a country where domestic violence remains a problem and patriarchy is the norm. Afterwards, the group was going to bury the “red apple.” 

Known locally as "garmir khndzor," the tradition is perhaps one of Armenia’s most controversial. Referring to the virginal bloodstains left by a bride on her wedding night, challenging the custom remains somewhat of a taboo. Although many families instead present an actual red apple rather than hang out stained bed linen for all to see, the tradition is still observed in some form. Simply put, most Armenian men expect to marry a virgin and double standards governing gender and sexuality in the country define the reality. 

Recently, an MP from the ruling Republican Party of Armenia, 35-year-old Karen Avagyan, even publicly stated that he would never  marry a woman who wasn’t a virgin, and he is not alone. Most Armenian men are believed to feel the same, and many Armenian women comply. For this reason, the Women's Resource Center of Armenia, WOW, Utopiana and other NGOs decided to stage their march. Although initially planned as a mock funeral for the “red apple,” plans appear to have been changed at the last moment, perhaps because of local sensitivities. 

Instead, the organizers issued a press release stating that their message was not that it was wrong to be a virgin, but that it was a matter of individual choice and not one to be dictated by society. The mock burial was later staged in a private event at the Women’s Resource Center.

Even so, the day was not without its incidents. A group of pro-government bloggers, for example, turned up to mock the event. Indeed, at one stage they effectively disrupted the march by shouting out slogans such as “Struggle, struggle, until sex,” a direct play on that used by the extra-parliamentary opposition (“Struggle, struggle, until the end”) during last year’s disputed presidential election. One even said that he believed such marches should be illegal. “Let them march and the next thing you know, narcotics addicts will want to stage their own demonstrations too,” he said. 

Equating narcotics use to women’s rights was a little strange, I pointed out, but he remained unconvinced. “It’s not about women’s rights,” he responded. “It’s about destroying Armenian culture and tradition.” 

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As if such an attitude wasn’t enough, a police van blocked the path of the demonstrators a few minutes later with officers demanding to know why people were marching. Although the law explicitly states that no authorization is required for rallies if the number of participants is less than 100, the authorities are obviously nervous about the post-election situation in the country. After speaking to the organizers, the march was allowed to continue with a plain clothes policeman walking alongside about 30 women and a few male supporters. 

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That is, until the march hit the central Moscow Cinema where another group of policemen told the marchers they could not continue on to Republic Square. True, permission was eventually given, but there is no basis in law for their actions, and the police riot van and policemen that had been called in to follow the demonstration was just a little too much. It was, after all, International Women’s Day. 

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On the other hand, the day illustrated how traditional patriarchal attitudes are slow to die out in countries such as Armenia. Basically, if anyone is expecting a female liberation movement, let alone a sexual revolution, to occur anytime soon, well, don’t hold your breath. Meanwhile, one small group of activists tried to change something and educate the population that International Women’s Day should be more than about simply handing out flowers.

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As one male observer from the Diaspora commented sarcastically, “the men can give presents today, and continue to beat and cheat on their wives tomorrow…”

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Photos: International Women's Day, Yerevan, Republic of Armenia © Onnik Krikorian / Oneworld Multimedia 2009

67 Comments

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artmika | March 8, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply

Onnik, many thanks for reporting and photostory.

Some of those ‘defenders of traditions’ were discussing the other day on their blogs the option of bribing religious women at Yerevan churches (!!) so that they will come and disrupt the action... No surprises here.

To see a riot police van accompanying a small women’s march, that’s something. How frightened are they with any display of rights movement?!

Overall, machismo was on full display in Armenia on International Women’s Day.

Thanks to that small group of activists, the hope for changes in our country stays at least alive. Well done to Women’s Resource Centre and supporters for making International Women’s Day in Armenia somehow relevant to its real meaning.

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nik | March 8, 2009 7:53 PM | Reply

great reporting and wonderful pictures.

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Blogian | March 8, 2009 8:28 PM | Reply

Awesome story, Onnik, and well written. I would add that instead women becoming sexually liberated in Armenia, perhaps men should become more restrainted and rethink sex as a physical domination. So not bury the red apple, but give it to men. I am not saying no sex before marriage; but I am saying no sex for the sake of sex.

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Teresa Malatian | March 8, 2009 9:06 PM | Reply

very interesting !Congratulations to brave armenian women!

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Anahit Mailyan | March 8, 2009 11:08 PM | Reply

I am happy to see that women finally are starting to do something about violation of their privacy and their rights in Armenia. Generations of women and men deprived from normal relationships because of that humiliating everybody tradition.

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Ruben Muradyan | March 9, 2009 7:47 AM | Reply

Hi Onnik.
Just one correction, to your coverage - there were not only pro-government bloggers among us. One guy, blogging at http://infernoarm.livejournal.com, is opposition supporter, really close to Erkrapah people. And of course there were some people, that do not care about politics at all.

The main point is that while I deeply respect the right of those people to march for the ideas they share, I respect in the same manner my right to mock it. I find it really funny, when people begin to fight against smth, that is completely out of their business.

Why they are not protesting against the bride's white dress? It is symbolyzing the same - purity.

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Ruben Muradyan | March 9, 2009 7:54 AM | Reply

I would add that instead women becoming sexually liberated in Armenia, perhaps men should become more restrainted and rethink sex as a physical domination. So not bury the red apple, but give it to men. I am not saying no sex before marriage; but I am saying no sex for the sake of sex.
I fully agree with you.
Actually the red apple is a voluntarily supported tradition. That's it.
And if a girl wants to keep her virginity - she does so.

That's why I personally preferred to mock this whole thing, instead of being serious.

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 9:24 AM | Reply

Ruben, will respond to your comments later as I'm looking after my son at present. However, I don't dispute that the general patriarchal attitude in Armenia is "accepted" by the majority. Moreover, opposition or pro-government, what was interesting about those who decided to disrupt the event was that apart from one person, they were all male.

Otherwise, I don't think you'd accept opposition supporters infiltrating a small rally by, say, Miasin (a youth group apparently the brainchild of the presidential administration) to chant their own slogans (it's actually pretty much a provocation), so I don't see why people should attempt to disrupt a small march to promote women's rights on International Women's Day.

By all means look on from the sidelines or even stage your own event to promote the virginity of women, but many people would not consider the approach taken by you guys to be appropriate or necessary. They have their right to march, just as you have yours. The comment from one of your groups saying that such demos should be illegal pretty much says it all, in my opinion.

Anyway, more on the other issues -- and specifically a lack of tolerance or respect for individual freedom or gender -- later.

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Ruben Muradyan | March 9, 2009 10:25 AM | Reply

Onnik, there was no intention to disrupt the event. No one was blocking the protesters, no one was insulting or attacking them. So let's be honest here - the protest was mocked, and the only persons who have been insulted were Pigh, and Infernoarm, who were named fascists.

Anyway - if you personally do not like this approach it still does not mean, that it was a) illegal, b) disrupting.
Moreover - the funeral itself is a provocation, and while you accept one provocation, why do you not accept the other?
;)

The issue is not the virginity, Sir. To be virgin, or no, to be straight, queer or gay - doesn't matter, it is a question of personal choice, and no one have the right to impose people to do smth. And if a girl thinks that red apple is breaking her rights, she is free to find a guy, who don't care about it. If a girl thinks that virginity is something important for her - she will keep it. That's it.

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Tatevik | March 9, 2009 10:51 AM | Reply

Aprenq menq...

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Elizabeth Metraux | March 9, 2009 11:23 AM | Reply

Really interesting story.. thanks for the terrific reporting, Onnik!

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply

Ruben, you would be the first to react harshly against, say, members of the pro-opposition Hima youth movement doing the same as what you did at a Miasin pro-government rally. Moreover, while not illegal, such an act is aimed only at disruption. On the other hand, holding a women's march on International Woman's Day is not a provocation, it is actually a legal and constitutional right.

If you believe that women should still follow the tradition of red apple, then it is your right to hold your own meetings or rallies to make that point. However, you chose instead to disrupt their gathering. Whether you consider your actions to be "mocking," it is still a provocation and meant to disrupt.

As I said, I do not believe you will consider it a right of Hima supporters to march among Miasin youth mocking them and shouting out slogans at some points.

Meanwhile, back to some of your other points. Firstly, it is not simply a matter of whether a girl decides to remain a virgin before marriage. There are actually at least three issues. First, men are not expected to remain virgins yet many will not marry a girl who has had sex before marriage. Some even do have sex but not in the "traditional" way, shall we say while others might..

Second, the matter is that even if a girl does decide to remain a virgin why is it so important to follow a custom to express to everyone that she is? And if she isn't, why is the custom still observed anyway, including sometimes in deceitful ways?

Thirdly, virginity is not necessarily an individual choice. It is actually a demand from society regardless of what the girl actually would prefer (although many women are brought up to gladly agree).

Anyway, some other issues... firstly, as I said, individual freedom, and especially when it comes to sexual or gender identity, is not accepted here in Armenia. Society is prejudiced, intolerant and patriarchal. For example, society also expects people to marry and I know many young people who are forced to enter into wedlock.

Some guys I know, while having girlfriends they might have wanted to marry in the future, are actually forced by their families to marry girls they've met on only one previous occasion. The families arranged it because for many in Armenia, the question of marriage isn't necessarily connected to love. It's connected to family demands for offspring.

As to the wedding dress, well, you've reminded me of another point. Rather than discuss the appropriateness of that, an interesting next move might be if someone instead questioned societal pressure for marriage in the first place. Or if two people choose to get married by their own free will, why would society not be tolerant of them living together first?

Connected to this is the lack of tolerance for individual choice in Armenia, and especially when it comes to questions over collective rather than personal freedoms.

Which reminds me of an interesting blog post by a young female blogger who started out on my old blog:

The family is the natural and fundamental cell of society Article 32, Constitution of Republic of Armenia

But wait… where is the individual?

It almost seems like an individual’s life per se does not hold value in Armenia unless he or she is a part of a family. Surely, family values have always played an important role in Armenian society, and while it is not neccessarily bad, there is something wrong about relatives drinking to your future marriage on every single occasion when you do not even want one.

[...]

Family is sacred.

But just think about the sacrifices a woman makes to the greedy family beast. She quits her work for the family. She tolerates an unhappy marriage for the family. She tolerates domestic violence for the family.

Because without a family you are nobody.

Because family is the cell, and the individual is only part of it.

Because any part must conform to the whole. link

Anyway, needless to see we will agree to disagree on this matter. While you consider a small group of women educating about gender rights and questioning a male-perpetuated custom and tradition to be a "provocation" on International Women's Day, others instead consider it a natural constitutional, legal and human right.

Probably this says a lot about how individual freedoms are viewed in this country, and how actually, there is little or no culture of democratic thought in a traditional and patriarchal society which reacts against individuality instead of actually embracing it and the diversity it inspires.

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply

Just one more point, while some choose to speak about personal choice for women, but ridiculing and fighting against those who choose to demonstrate their own, it should be noted that this is what one of the organizers wrote about the matter:

By burying the red apple, we are not telling anyone to not be a virgin, because we believe that everyone has the right to chose their personal life and sexuality, as a basic human right.

On the contrary we want to express that every woman has the right to chose for herself and not be forced in the name of tradition.

The red apple is an attempt to our private life as women. And what we decide to do with our bodies concerns us and nobody else.

So if we want to stay virgin, it is our right and completely respected and if we don't that it is also our choice.

We want to bury the traditions that makes us feel less than a human and that makes us choose against our will.

And as the "funeral" was actually a private event, I fail to see how any of the above can be considered a "provocation" when such rights are enshrined in the Constitution.

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Kevork | March 9, 2009 12:32 PM | Reply

There is a simple argument here - either one accepts men and women are equal in dignity, or one does not. If a man is expected to lose his virginity before getting married, and a woman is supposed to keep hers, there is something fundamentally wrong and illogical; it means that there will necessarily, logically be girls who lose their virginity before marriage, only to be ostracised by their surroundings, while those who actually cause them to lose their virginity (presumably men) will see their 'tghamrartkutyun' confirmed.

After all, you cannot have both without landing yourself into a whole lot of hypocricy - brides having there hymens fixed, men visiting prostitutes while their little housewives stay at home with the kids..... And what about wife abuse in Armenia - for all the male chauvinist swagger, many of the Neanderthals among us show their "tghamartkutyun" by laying their hands on their wives. All of this fits into what remains a primitive patriarchal society - symbolised by the stupidity that is the 'red apple'.

We like to talk about our 'ancestral traditions'. Well, in pagan times, one of those traditions was that a newlywed bride had to sleep with most of the male members of her new family straight after marriage. Or that virgins were sent to the temple of Astghik to work as prostitutes. Perhaps we could resurrect those 'traditions' as well?

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Ruben Muradyan | March 9, 2009 12:56 PM | Reply

Just because you've mentioned a few big questions let's find out the points
1. "Hima-Miasin" situation
If Hima actions will be non-violent, and legal - I will not have any objection.
2. Women's march on International Woman's Day is not a provocation
Correct. The provocation is the funeral of red apple, but not a march/action. While I fully support protection of women rights, protests and actions against domestic violence, equal opportunities issues, etc. I will never agree with intervention in the area of personal choice.
3. Tradition of red apple
It's a question of my personal choice. Moreover, it's a question of everyone's personal choice.
4. 3 points about the virginity
4.1 It's a question of choice, Onnik. If it is important for girl to have a virgin spouse - she is free to look for him. And if a virginity is an issue for her future husband - she is free to leave him.
4.2 I'm sure, you've got smth wrong. Red apples are brought to girls family, on the day next to first night, and it is the question of girls' parents to invite someone else for this day. Red apples are not shown to everyone. Modern couples do not bring red apples, but pay a visit to bride's parents without focusing on special matters like red apples, or smth like this.
4.3 So what's wrong with social demand? Does the society killing non-virgins? Or what? people like smth, or do not like smth. For example I do not like when foreign money is trying to change our society.
5. White dress
White dress, Onnik, is the same as the red apples. It's a tradition. And when you are avoiding discussion on this issue it shows me one interesting point: you DO understand the nonsense of fighting white dress, which is exactly the same as the red apple.
6. Quotation of post about a family.
This girl is simply wrong. It is not a special armenian issue. It is a human issue.
7. Women rights
As I mentioned earlier in this answer, I have big respect for women rights. I welcome the idea of equality, and always consider woman as equal human being.
8. Funeral is a private event
No. It was not private. Invitations were sent by email, and by facebook. Nothing was required to join an action.
9. Diversity inspired by individuality
Hmmmm...
I still wonder what's wrong with my individuality?
I understand, that you welcome the individuality of protesters. What's wrong with me?
10. We want to bury the traditions
And it is the provocation. This approach have met similar approach.

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Ani | March 9, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply

It’s interesting, isn’t it, how the traditions that are “important to maintain” always seem to deny and repress women and minorities. There are plenty of traditions that have fallen unnoticed by the wayside because they are inconvenient to the (always) men in charge. Equal rights for women means the right to act, not just to react (say, by waiting for somebody to give them roses). It means that women are valuable as human beings and not commodities. And “commodities” is exactly what both of these two words are: “virgin” and “whore.” Labels reduce individuals to things—the women marching on Sunday simply want to be individuals and want society to see each woman as an individual with worth that is not determined by sexuality. And men, as always, mocking women and telling them to shut up—sadly, nothing new there. Guess what, though, we are not going to shut up.

I know, Ruben (and Tigran, because of course you’re reading), that this was a fun outing for you and the tribe of Lost Boys. Surely you do not really want to become the Armenian Taliban. But actions sometimes have unexpected consequences, in case those lacking a sense of humor decide to take your stance seriously. For instance, here is a very recent story about a Chechen president Ramzan Kadyrov his stance on women: http://tinyurl.com/6ubwd6

Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov said last week that the bodies of seven young women with gunshots to the head were found dumped by roadsides in Chechnya late last year and early this year had “loose morals” and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings, The Associated Press (AP) reported on February 28. “If a woman runs around and if a man runs around with her, both of them are killed,” Kadyrov told journalists in Grozny after attending prayers at a mosque in the Chechen capital.

Yes, holding those Caucasian traditions close to his heart, along with bride kidnappings and lots of other amusing traditions, like harems and purdah…

--Simon, didn't know you were a Platonist!

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Ani | March 9, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply

It’s interesting, isn’t it, how the traditions that are “important to maintain” always seem to deny and repress women and minorities. There are plenty of traditions that have fallen unnoticed by the wayside because they are inconvenient to the (always) men in charge. Equal rights for women means the right to act, not just to react (say, by waiting for somebody to give them roses). It means that women are valuable as human beings and not commodities. And “commodities” is exactly what both of these two words are: “virgin” and “whore.” Labels reduce individuals to things—the women marching on Sunday simply want to be individuals and want society to see each woman as an individual with worth that is not determined by sexuality. And men, as always, mocking women and telling them to shut up—sadly, nothing new there. Guess what, though, we are not going to shut up.

I know, Ruben (and Tigran, because of course you’re reading), that this was a fun outing for you and the tribe of Lost Boys. Surely you do not really want to become the Armenian Taliban. But actions sometimes have unexpected consequences, in case those lacking a sense of humor decide to take your stance seriously. For instance, here is a very recent story about a Chechen president Ramzan Kadyrov his stance on women: http://tinyurl.com/6ubwd6

Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov said last week that the bodies of seven young women with gunshots to the head were found dumped by roadsides in Chechnya late last year and early this year had “loose morals” and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings, The Associated Press (AP) reported on February 28. “If a woman runs around and if a man runs around with her, both of them are killed,” Kadyrov told journalists in Grozny after attending prayers at a mosque in the Chechen capital.

Yes, holding those Caucasian traditions close to his heart, along with bride kidnappings and lots of other amusing traditions, like harems and purdah…

--Simon, didn't know you were a Platonist!

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Zepani | March 9, 2009 3:27 PM | Reply

I do not think that we are living in the Communist era, where people are under constant repression and have to comply with everything coming from the party. I believe tradition in general is something that gradually develops throughout centuries and changes depending on the direction that the people in society decide to move in. The tradition of virginity bears some meaning in it.There are far reaching repercussions to having sex before marriage, and the aim of the tradition is to prevent certain consequences it can have if practiced otherwise - sexually transmitted diseases, pills that destroy the hormonal balance,unexpected pregnancy,abortions... which all affects the health.

This is a harmless tradition which is not imposed on anybody. It is up to the couples and then families to decide whether they follow the tradition or not. There is no violation of human rights, as I believe that women in Armenia are able to make a choice and if something is done willingly then it means there is no violence.

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Zepani | March 9, 2009 3:30 PM | Reply

Apple is a very healthy fruit, so buring the apple you are burying the sign of health!

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply

Ruben,

1. "Hima-Miasin" situation
If Hima actions will be non-violent, and legal - I will not have any objection.

Sorry, I think you would because what would happen is the police would intervene, perhaps even beat or arrest them. Then, when the international organizations or opposition press commented on it, you'd blame Hima for infiltrating someone else's rally and provoking trouble.

As we know, despite holding rallies of less than 100 people in the past few weeks, Hima has been obstructed by police. Indeed, I'm sure the reason police stopped the women's march yesterday was because they wanted to check if there were Hima or opposition supporters. However, they have no right to do so.

2. Women's march on International Woman's Day is not a provocation
Correct. [...] While I fully support protection of women rights, protests and actions against domestic violence, equal opportunities issues, etc. I will never agree with intervention in the area of personal choice.

Well, here we will disagree on how "red apple" and the question of virginity is viewed. Some would argue that it is not a matter of personal choice, but rather a demand from a patriarchal society.

4.2 I'm sure, you've got smth wrong. Red apples are brought to girls family, on the day next to first night, and it is the question of girls' parents to invite someone else for this day. Red apples are not shown to everyone. Modern couples do not bring red apples, but pay a visit to bride's parents without focusing on special matters like red apples, or smth like this.

No, red apple is observed in different ways depending on the family or whether they live in a city such as Yerevan or a village in the regions. More educated and progressive classes might do it all in private, for sure, and even just present an apple without caring, but that is not the case for everyone:

For example:

Armenians celebrate weddings by chanting and dancing outside and inside their homes, brandishing cakes and foods and inviting the neighbors over. During the The Red Apple, which is a similar celebration on the day following the wedding, the family of the groom brandishes a meter long sword topped by a Red Apple. They parade and dance in the street with the Apple and the sword. While not everyone practices this tradition, as there are different types of classes, families, interests and localities in Armenia, everyone knows of The Red Apple.


When one thinks of it for a few seconds, this is the piercing of a “fruit” by a very phallic and deadly tool. This is a celebration of the woman loosing her hymen. At first when the women at Utopiana, a NGO for contemporary arts, told me of this celebration I was not sure what “an apple stuck on a sword” implied. I said: “so what?” but quickly realized the red apple is the vulva/blood/flesh and the sword was a phallus, or masculine power. The rite itself may be “cute” but the symbols are clearly violent and patriarchal – for example, the sword has to be oversized (not just a regular knife) and of course, it is also a deadly tool. link

or:

In the conservative class, the apple was signifying the girl’s innocence. To ensure the “existence” of the “Red Apple” a special ceremony was held. Many people were gathering, including the relatives, neighbors and gossiping women (it was very important to shut their mouth) and were starting their “inspections”. Usually the things were getting so extreme that the mother-in-law was taking the wedding-sheet and was showing it to the neighbors. To avoid making a negative mood, we will skip the information explaining what was happening with the girl, in case of “Red Apple” “absence”. We can only add that the girl’s situation was becoming very sad. Anyway, in case of positive result, the bridegroom’s mother, aunt and other female relatives put red apples in the salver and go to the bride’s house for congratulating. At the bride’s house everyone was waiting for them with already prepared dinner. link

and:

This is a wedding tradition that I absolutely detest. The red apple symbolizes the bride's virginity (the double standard reigns in full force in Armenia: girls are supposed to be virgins at their wedding, while guys can fool around before -and after- the wedding). It is offered to the bride at her place on the day of the wedding. The next day, if the sheet of the nuptual bed shows drops of blood (which is apparently shown in public), the red apple is given to the bride's family by the groom's side as a token of "appreciation" that they gave away a good girl who was still a virgin. I am sorry, but how much more humiliating can you get!?!? link

5. White dress
White dress, Onnik, is the same as the red apples. It's a tradition.
And when you are avoiding discussion on this issue it shows me one interesting point: you DO understand the nonsense of fighting white dress, which is exactly the same as the red apple.

The white dress is not the same as "red apple" as it does not require the bride to "prove" her purity. Moreover, it is not used to expect girls to be virgins on their wedding night. However, it does raise some interesting side-issues. Firstly, for me personally, if I get married again I would not choose a church and would rather do away with the costumes. Secondly, if the point is to preserve Armenian traditions, as the the white dress is not traditionally Armenian I'm surprised some of you don't protest it instead.

6. Quotation of post about a family.
This girl is simply wrong. It is not a special armenian issue. It is a human issue.

As it concerns [Armenian] societal expectations against individual choice, I would say it is.

9. Diversity inspired by individuality
Hmmmm...
I still wonder what's wrong with my individuality?
I understand, that you welcome the individuality of protesters. What's wrong with me?

Absolutely nothing wrong with you, Ruben. However, instead of infiltrating someone else's rally you could perhaps stage your own to preserve traditions and even to promote virginity.

That's your legal and constitutional right, just as it is theirs.

10. We want to bury the traditions
And it is the provocation. This approach have met similar approach.

Sorry, I don't agree. Indeed, if you felt that you'd be protesting against the church who have re-invented and stolen pagan Armenian traditions and changed their meaning. This, perhaps, is the point. customs and tradition change and have changed.

It is hard to say since when the Armenians have the idea of “Red Apple”. Not always the Armenians had the “Red Apple” tradition. It is known that during the pagan times in Armenia the girls were sacrificing their innocence to the Astghik Goddess on the day of her veneration in the temple that had her name. They were sacrificing it to the wanderers, foreigners, in other words- to the tourists. Hereafter, those girls were becoming the most desired brides, because their beauty was sheltered by the Astghik goddess herself. There is no sense in criticizing the customs of our ancestors, because the value system has been changed numerous times before coming to our times. It is obvious though, that during all these centuries the idea of the “Red Apple” anyhow has reached to us- turning from one extreme side to another. link

Interestingly, the point about Armenian girls losing their virginity to foreigners is something that has been mentioned to me here recently. For example, for those girls that do have sex before marriage, some do so with foreign students because they do not know their relatives or friends and do not gossip, destroying their chance for later marriage with an Armenian man.

As Kevork and others mention, there are other ways to avoid "disgrace:"

“Yeah, I mean, people do it here too. Traditionally they are not supposed to, but then there are all these surgeries to, you know, rebuild…how is it called…you know…”


“Hymen”

“That. Well, lots of women go to get surgery to have it back. And there is this surgery that lasts three days…”

“What do you mean three days?”

“Three days, so they can get married without their husband knowing that they were not virgins. The problem is that a lot of men know about this surgery, so sometimes they wait four-five days before having sex with their wife…just to make sure…”

Mélanie is impressed, Silja is outraged.

“What? Don’t they trust their wives?”

Lilith shakes her head “well, you know…reputation…”

“And then there is like a party to show the sheet…”

Silja can’t believe it. “Oh God! That’s disgusting, can you imagine that?” link

or:

After drinking coffee the mother started to tell what happened. And she said, “We got our son married”, and I interrupted her saying, Congratulations!”


And the mother replied, “Congratulations? Do you see this scoundrel, he had sexual intercourse before the wedding…” I don’t know why, but I replied, “So, good for him!”

At that moment the mother smiled immediately and added, “Yes, I am saying the same, but how can I explain this to his father, to the bride’s relatives and to all our relatives? All of them want to see a red apple. So, we found a pretext saying that the bride has her period … and we thought about seeking your assistance.”

They asked me to put two sutures, because they were going to show people the bed sheet of the brides after the loving ceremony. I felt shivering in my body and tried to refuse, but useless.

At that time his father was in the house of the bride and if he would know about it, he would beat his son, and would send the bride back to her family.

So, I had to find a solution. They suggested taking blood from the boy’s vein to pull on the sheet. They explained that the color of that blood is lighter.

The bridegroom was afraid of the needle, so I took the blood from his sister. The bride was ashamed, so she didn’t go out of her room. I asked to bring a sheet to show my “artistic skills”. I was surprised when they brought a big set of clothes. They explained me, that they are putting it under the bride and…

It turned out, that the first intercourse of the loving couples is not a loving intercourse, but a showing event.

“Is this the way to start a family life”, I asked myself. link

Anyway, we seem to have gone off the point... ;-)

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply

Zepani,

I would agree that traditions change as society does, but I can't accept your argument about virginity preventing sexually transmitted diseases and abortions. For example, it would make sense were it not for the fact that most Armenian men are not virgins before they marry.

Moreover, some first have sex with prostitutes and most don't wear condoms and because of this as well as the lack of family planning and sexual education, these problems are most noticeable during marriage itself. Indeed, abortion is still considered the main form of birth control in Armenia.

This is a leftover from the Soviet era and indirectly linked to claims that even talk of family planning in Armenia is some kind of external conspiracy to destroy Armenian culture and tradition just as the same argument is used to decry women talking about their rights.

Meanwhile, the main point is this. It is up for society (and arguably women in particular as it concerns their bodies). By all means let both sides discuss, but education is key as is open discussion. I also wonder if were it not for this tradition, there would be no need for unsafe sex for men before marriage.

Anyway, and somewhat encouragingly, such discussion is slowly starting to take place:

During the first debates, we discussed whether women should work after marriage, and if it is wrong or not to have sex before marriage. In Armenia, it is expected that girls are virgins before they are married, while boys should have sexual experience.


Sargis Bashikyan (18), the only boy participating in this debate, argued that girls should wait until marriage because of the Armenian tradition called “The Red Apple”. According to the tradition, the parents of the groom visit the couple after their wedding night to see if there is blood on the bed sheets, and then they bring a red apple to the parents of the bride as a symbol of loss of virginity.

- Girls should not have sex before marriage, because they should save their body for the man they marry, says Metaqsya Yeghiazaryan (20).

She thinks that Armenian girls are more respected if they are virgins before they marry.

But Nelly Movsesyan (20) did not agree with Sargis and Mataqsya, and argued that boys and girls should decide themselves when they wanted to have sex.

- I think it would be good if the Armenian traditions could change a bit. It is better if girls also can have sex before marriage, especially if they are more than 25 years old before they marry. It is not healthy for their body if they do not have sexual relation before this age, Nelly thinks.

She also adds that the best case is if the sexual relation is with a person you love and later want to marry. link

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BSW | March 9, 2009 4:20 PM | Reply

Second, the matter is that even if a girl does decide to remain a virgin why is it so important to follow a custom to express to everyone that she is?

AS far as I understood that was exactly the point of the march and not a question of virginity itself. It is her choice to be or not to be a virgin. With "red apple" tradition a newly married girl is actually deprived of any choice. She is expected to comply with other people's demand and to prove to everyone her "purity" which in many ( if not most) cases is already gone with "untraditional" ways of making love anyway...

Thanks God we are not Muslims otherwise these radical bloggers would have tried to keep us in burgas just to "keep traditions alive"...

I am curious to see what exactly they will come up with in the end of May for Cherny Gago, it takes a "little bit" more courage to shout smt at him...

Other than presentig soaps to Vanyan ( well, they did know he is not a type to get engaged in smth there) and shouting abt sex to young girls are they capable on smth really serious? Like telling Nemets Rubo,Lfik Samo,Dodi Gago,etc. what they really think of them? Ili vse-taki slabo?
Eto je tebe ne gruppa molodix devchat...

So what is it now, every time anyone wants to express their views publicly they should be concerned abt group of fanatic bloggers?

Well done to the girls! ;-)
Maybe we were not with you yesterday but rest assured we do express our disgust with that hnadaryan and humilating tradition everywhere possible! ;-)

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Anoush Kabalyan | March 9, 2009 7:02 PM | Reply

When I was a teenager, I always thought that I would never agree to live with a man who considers buying prostitutes a normal and vital procedure for a real man's life. I have had a couple of boyfriends, who thought that this is normal. And sometimes I thought I would never find an Armenian guy, who thinks buying sex is not a pure thing to do. I was scared of not marrying ever, as I knew I would stick to my truth.
Eventually, I got married to a man, who never cared about my past, my virginity, and thought that it's not normal when men buy prostitutes. Before getting married we lived together for 3 years and I knew I was free to stop our relationship whenever I wanted. This was my choice and I am glad I never agreed for less than I wanted to have.
My advice to Armenian girls. Ladies, never ever agree to give up your truth, believe me one day you will find someone who agrees with you!
As for the "red apple" I agree, that somehow some movements should be made in Armenia to expose that it's ok to be against humiliating traditions like "red apple".
In spite of the fact that I always believe in the saying "To each his own! Everyone get's what he/she deserves!", I know that there are a lot of women in Armenia, who have made mistake by marrying the wrong guy and giving up their lives, and they cannot change it. The reason is that they have children and they have no where to go.
I think that there should be some social houses for women who have been abused, where they can find temporary shelter, where they can be protected from the violence.
Anyways, I am glad that Armenians have started acting somehow!

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Onnik Krikorian | March 9, 2009 10:37 PM | Reply

Another blog, The Armenian Observer, has also put together a post on the tradition:

Tradition gone wild - the ‘red apple’


Mock burial of the “Red apple” - symbol of women’s virginity took place in Armenia’s capital Yerevan on March 8th - the International Women’s Day.

In an event apparently initiated by the Women’s Resource Center and Utopiana Association, about 30 women and a few male supporters marched through Yerevan and burried the “red apple”. The procession was stopped by the police but was allowed to continue after some negotiations, accompanied by police. The participants of the march disseminated posters to onlookers that read “Don’t give up and think you’re powerless”, “Women need equal rights, opportunities and a life free of violence, not flowers on March 8th”.

The real red apples symbolizing the tradition were buried in the backyard of the Women’s Resource Center.

[...]

Now, as to the boys. At the age of 13-14 they start feeling the need for sex (for one thing, I did feel that need even earlier). And what are the options? The girls at their age are usually unavailable, becouse they have to remain virgins to meet the ‘red apple’ requirement, remember? So what’s the easy thing to do - go to the whores, of course! And that’s when the young, inexperienced kids, unaware of basic health and safety issues meet prostitutes (they are called sex-workers these days) full of germs and bugs, of which ‘tripper’ and ‘hepatytes’ are just the lesser of evils, and ’syphilis’ reigns, and HIV/AIDs is often a possibility.

[...]

Considering all of this, all I can do is ask - do we really need this? What is the point of this virginity rite, after all? I’m not against the red apple tradition, nor am I against the symbolic white dress of the bride. Use it as a symbol as much as you like, but this virginity thing is just outrageous.

I must confess, that this post was inspired by Onnik Krikoryan’s excellent article about the event with accompanying photos, as well ast he discussion that has taken shape there. I have also included a podcast of RFE/RL’s MaxLiberty program, which cover’s the ‘red apple burrial’ and has interviews with the participants of the event and the bloggers, namely Pigh, who came to make fun of it. Pigh has also posted his own account of the events, which are quite funny, I have to admit! link

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Tatevik Movsisyan | March 10, 2009 1:17 AM | Reply

i am not a blogger but absolutely appreciate this amazing discussion and wanted to leave some of my thoughts.

to start with BSW’s comment, i’m not sure that the point of the march was simply targeting the ritual of “red apple” and the general practice of various forms of public display of bridal virginity, though this is probably the most outrageous part of the story. i think the aim of the march was to raise questions regarding women’s rights and their choices in general, and those issues are not really so different – the red apple is just the ceremony of celebrating no choice! because while virginity and purity may be celebrated by two lovers, i don’t see what exactly is being celebrated by the neighbors, relatives, and the wider public, if not the victory of social oppression over individual freedom. it is indeed ironic that those who pretend to value, or, as noted above, “like” virginity stand up for a tradition so humiliating for human dignity and destructive of anything pure that may be in a relationship.

so if you live in a society where you don’t have much individual freedom, whether or not this ritual is observed does not make much difference in your personal life, therefore you can’t really discuss just the practice of red apple without talking about human rights, freedom of choice, and the society we live in.

regarding Ruben Muradyan’s multiple comments about personal choice –
obviously “personal choice” is a delicate term, but let’s not abuse it saying women are free to do what they want, when even an attempt to express what they might want is being instantly mocked. the choice of many girls is not between choosing one person or action over another, it is more about either gaining societal approval, by making their relatives and neighbors happy and satisfied at the price of possibly ruining their own happiness for the rest of their lives, OR being condemned, mocked, and alienated for choosing a lifestyle that others find inappropriate OR perhaps trying to escape both ends by waiting for a miracle, which is unlikely to happen or at least is not the rule. so if that’s the choice you had in mind, then you are right – women are absolutely free to choose, except that none of those choices has anything to do with what they want – living happy personal lives, being tolerated and respected in their society and family.

i don’t intend to blame anyone in particular, on the contrary, i'm glad such a discussion is taking place, and it is probably not realistic to expect swift changes in a traditional country like Armenia. but i just wonder how have we come to create such an intolerant society where the most peaceful and educational march of a handful of women’s rights supporters on a women’s day causes an immediate counter-attack and ridicule, and even police interference? how have we come to tolerate such intolerance?! this is the fault of every one of us. we call these traditions violent and yet we allow them to take place like we don’t notice anything, or don’t even bother to give it a thought.

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Blogian replied to comment from Ani | March 10, 2009 3:07 AM | Reply

Ani jan, I am not a Platonist at all. I just meant that sex should be (both physically and mentally) healthy and responsible for both parties.

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Blogian | March 10, 2009 3:13 AM | Reply

A question to the pro-tradition bloggers. Why don't you ever bring up the ultimate violation and oppression against women - human trafficking? Isn't there a big irony that our macho men are in denial when it comes to human trafficking?

A question to the pro-choice activists. Have you considered organizing a similar protest against human trafficking?

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Angela | March 10, 2009 8:35 AM | Reply

Yes, burying the red apple is a provocation in that it is a fundamental insult to patriarchal sensibilities like Rueben Muradian's. There is nothing wrong with provocation, if it is a provocation to question oppressive norms. However, with such a strategy one should also be ready for what in the US became a culture war --a radical rupture between "us" and "them", the other vilified and hated by the other camp.
Another note on this whole notion of individual choice--it's the biggest myth ever.
For instance, in many muslim countries women claiming that it is their "individual choice" to wear a veil. When you grow up with a certain upbringing which imposes upon you traditions and norms, then wearing and not wearing a veil is not an individual choice. Either you "choose" to wear it to comply with the tradition or you make yet another culturally and socially informed stance not to wear it. So, the human being is not a freely choosing agent, this freedom understood as absolute freedom from society.

Rueben, you are missing the point that there is a fundamental violence to women's rights crystallized in the tradition of red apple. It wasn't virginity per se the participants of these action were destroying but the attack on women's dignity as equal human beings. They were demanding to be heard as speaking beings which share a common social space with men and other women who were not a part of the action. In Armenia where even the public sphere is highly ritualized, perhaps one needs a ritual to fight against rituals.

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Mikael | March 10, 2009 9:19 AM | Reply

what pisses me off in that whole "red apple" thing
is that somehow everyone agrees that this is a "NATIONAL ARMENIAN TRADITION".
No, this is bullshit.
How can something, which is common for most MUSLIM peoples, from Iraq to Indonesia, be a "NATIONAL ARMENIAN TRADITION".
We take pride in being a Christian people, but we consider this bullshit to be
our Armenian tradition?
This is nonsense!
To me it's the most ANTI-ARMENIAN thing ever.

p.s. I really don't understand those who tried to disrupt the March...
If u think women should stay virgins untill they marry, why don't u admit it openly?
If you think they don't have to, then what's your problem anyways?
Why don't you guys leave other people's vaginas alone?

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Angela | March 10, 2009 10:40 AM | Reply

Mika, if this WAS a national Armenian tradition, then could we justify it by claiming that its true to our origins? I live in a muslim country - muslims don't practice "red apple" in the Arab world, at least where I live. Many Armenian traditions can be more repressive than muslim ones. And anyways, we live in the Middle East and it is hard to trace back what is "originally" ours and what is not...any is it worth it, in any case?

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 11:01 AM | Reply

Mikael
"We take pride in being a Christian people, but we consider this bullshit to be
our Armenian tradition?"
I think if we are christian there is no need to mentioned any tradition.
Virginity is accepted in the Bible by default.

Rouben jan ,my best respects!!!

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Mamikon PINK | March 10, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply

Bravo my favorite Women, you are amazing

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Angela | March 10, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply

Tigran, how would you deal with agnostics and non-believers who don't take the Bible as a reference point?

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Onnik Krikorian | March 10, 2009 11:58 AM | Reply

Tigran, so this is not a matter of Armenian tradition and culture, it is a matter of Christian beliefs which have only been observed by Armenians for a short amount of time during their entire history as a people.

Angela, relating to your comment regarding those who do not take the bible as the foundation of the State, preferring instead to follow the Constitution and the Law, it is also worth pointing out that this is a secular state.

Interestingly, do Tigran's comments indicate an interest in Armenia becoming a fundamentalist religious republic such as some Islamic countries. Theocracy over democracy and individual freedoms?

Meanwhile, for those of you who want to lead your lives as the bible says, then by all means do, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. You might also want to check if others around you are worthy of doing so anyway.

Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, steal, worship false idols etc.

Indeed, given Tigran's comment about what the bible says, and from looking at the ten commandments, it would appear that the government, the oligarchs, the military and the clergy break them on a daily basis.

Add the fact that such acts violate the Constitution, the law, and the rights of other citizens, perhaps Tigran's next protest should be outside a government building or in Etchmiadzin.

Of course, all of that said, it should only be Constitution which protects the right to freedom of religion, and it should be legislation which protects the rights of women and other citizens in according to democratic standards.

Anyway, I have to admit, the concept of nationalism driving the fight by some of these bloggers to protest civil society groups working in the area of human rights is at least understandable.

Quoting the bible, a book which some believe is the word of God while others do not (or even doubt the existence of a higher power anyway), is quite another. It is, however, another area of concern in Armenia.

Restrictive religious laws link

Ultimately, however, the discussion taking place about all of these issues represents the difference between democratic thought, where individual freedoms are central, and authoritarian regimes where religion and nationalism is used only to violate and restrict the rights of others and to retain power.

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 12:20 PM | Reply

Angela I'll not deal with them at all:)
Onnik jan Let me decide where to protest,when to protest and how to protest,OK?;)
Moreover,in my male opinion, lesbianism should be prohibited here as a potential rival for heterosexual men:)
By the way
Freedom of person is limited by the freedom of another person.

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply

And a bit more
To expats and people living abroad Armenia.
There is nice idiom in Russian-Не лезь в чужой монастырь со своим уставом",
means that you should respect tradition and laws in the country you are living.
So far,if it is normal for you to put legs on the table,it doesn't mean,that this will be acceptable everywhere.

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Onnik Krikorian | March 10, 2009 12:33 PM | Reply

Tigran, the freedom of the individual limits the freedom of another only when it affects your ability to lead the life you personally want to lead and is regulated by legislation and the Constitution.

As for where and when you want to protest, you can hold your own rallies and so on. However, infiltrating somebody else's rally to shout provocative statements is really something that few would be tolerant of.

Interestingly, however, the women did nothing to evict you from the march although had there been police present at the beginning, you would have been in a society where freedom of assembly is respected.

By all means have your own opinions and beliefs, and by all means hold your own rallies, but that's how it's done. At the same time, I fail to see how a small group that concerns itself with women's rights infringes upon yours.

But then again, that's because this is an undemocratic and patriarchal society where individual freedoms are NOT respected, so I can see why Armenian men would react against any concepts of fundamental human rights.

Ultimately it boils down to that -- individual freedoms and tolerance. Unfortunately, there's very little of either in Armenian society although on a brighter note, your actions during the march has initiated discussion.

Ironically, however, it seems to have opened up the debate in line with the aim of the women's protest. Other blog posts have been written, comments are being made, people are discussing.

That's a good first step in achieving change in countries such as Armenia where there is usually no such discourse. Here's hoping it continues.

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 12:52 PM | Reply

Onnik
Imagine that I consider the virginity as principal concept, and everyone who put this in danger is considered as an enemy. Why I should tolerate to the march which disrupt my faith and ideas?
Ypu know I am really tired to listen this stupid double-standarded moral from the people living in the countries where homosexualism is prohibited in more than 20 states(like US).Where puritanism is largely spread.
This is my country,my nation living here for ages with it's own culture and traditions. And everyone who is eager to tease traditions or teach moral is free to leave to the country where this moral is working.
Labeling everything as a nationalism and fascism is a nice way to accept that there are no other arguments in discussion.
Don't take it personal,pls
With the best regards
Tigran

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Onnik Krikorian | March 10, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply

Tigran,

magine that I consider the virginity as principal concept, and everyone who put this in danger is considered as an enemy. Why I should tolerate to the march which disrupt my faith and ideas?

Then what you do is stage your own rally or engage in activities where you can put your own viewpoint across. Then, you let society determine it's own choice based on reasoned debate.

Ypu know I am really tired to listen this stupid double-standarded moral from the people living in the countries where homosexualism is prohibited in more than 20 states(like US).Where puritanism is largely spread.

Since when was homosexuality illegal in the U.S., Tigran?

This is my country,my nation living here for ages with it's own culture and traditions. And everyone who is eager to tease traditions or teach moral is free to leave to the country where this moral is working.

And those traditions have naturally changed as time progresses and society changes. Christianity, for example, is not a traditionally Armenian and anyway, when customs infringe upon the rights of the individual they should and will change.

There is nice idiom in Russian-Не лезь в чужой монастырь со своим уставом", means that you should respect tradition and laws in the country you are living.

Firstly, as I mentioned, traditions naturally change or die out. Secondly, what happens when those customs and traditions conflict with key constitutional and other rights determined by law?

Indeed, in many cases, tradition and law run counter with each other. Certainly, when it comes to gender, this is especially the case. Meanwhile, follow the traditions you want. However, disrupting a rally is not the way to do it.

Ultimately, society will decide, and from what I'm seeing I'm convinced that just as red apple has changed over time, it will eventually die out just as many other traditions in countries such as Armenia (and also in the West) have also disappeared.

Live in the past or the future, your choice. However, developed democratic countries ultimately choose the latter while respecting certain traditions which do not violate the rights of individuals or promote intolerance in society.

That is ultimately called democratization or progress and it's a path that ever country has to strive to follow anywhere and everywhere in the World. Those countries that have not are generally repressive and authoritarian.

Meanwhile, choose your own path, Tigran, but individual freedoms should be paramount. When the time comes that Armenians choose not to follow red apple, you will of course be free to practice it.

However, you need to be tolerant of those that don't even now, and this appears to be the problem. Ultimately this is an issue of tolerance versus intolerance, and individual freedoms protected by law against nationalist or religious ideology.

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 1:22 PM | Reply

Onnik
What you wrote is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

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Angela | March 10, 2009 1:46 PM | Reply

"This is my country,my nation living here for ages with it's own culture and traditions. And everyone who is eager to tease traditions or teach moral is free to leave to the country where this moral is working." -- Tigran, this is also my country, and I don't share your views. And I believe that your morals aren't working for me.

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Onnik Krikorian replied to comment from Tigran Kocharyan | March 10, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply

LOL!

Actually, what I wrote wasn't that at all. Here's what the opening sentence of the link you posted says:

Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which consider the state to be unnecessary, harmful, and/or undesirable. link

Meanwhile, as I recall, I mentioned the importance of the law and constitution, i.e. the role of the State in protecting and guaranteeing individual freedoms.

In particular, the individual is considered in the same way regardless of gender and it should be noted that discrimination is a violation of the constitution.

Article 3

The human being, his/her dignity and the fundamental human rights and freedoms are an ultimate value.

[...]

Article 14

Human dignity shall be respected and protected by the state as an inviolable foundation of human rights and freedoms.

Article 14.1

[...]

Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or other personal or social circumstances shall be prohibited. link

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Angela | March 10, 2009 2:02 PM | Reply

And by the way, Onnik might have invested more in "your country" than most Armenian who were born there.

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Mikael | March 11, 2009 9:30 AM | Reply

Tigran,
Can you bring an example of a Christian country, in which
sex before marriage is considered immoral?
(except Georgia of course, they have been under Muslim dominations,
just like we have)
there is a lot of stuff in the Bible, which Christians
don't always take literally, and especially don't see at as part of their national tradition.
E.g. masturbation is considered a sin in the Bible, but does that mean
that everyone who has ever masturbated cannot be considered Christian or Armenian.
When it comes to "Red Apple" there are only two positions:
Either you believe that a woman who has had sex before marriage is a "whore",
and a guy who has married such a woman is a "harif", or you don't think so.
So, it's a very easy "yes" - "no" question.
If you think that a woman who has had sex before marriage is a prostitute, that's your opinion, but please don't call it "Armenian tradition".
Being Armenian is not about the state of someone's vagina.

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Mikael replied to comment from Angela | March 11, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply

Angela,
I agree, it wouldn't be justified anyway.
My point is that when people speak of virginity complex as a "part of national identity", it is simply ridiculous and absurd.
E.g. if someone says that Armenian aplhabet, or Armenian medieval architecture is
part of "the national identity" or "tradition", you might still disagree
with it, but at least it's a logically coherent statement, because the alphabet
or medieval architecture distinguish Armenians from all other peoples,
while the "virginity" issue doesn't distingiush us from anyone.

As for the Middle East, I wouldn't be so sure, may be geographically we are closer to Middle East, but culturally (at least in terms of high culture - religion, literature, art, etc.) Armenians have been closer to South-Eastern Europe. That is one of the reasons why attempts to turn Armenia into the "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan", are an insult to me as an Armenian patriot.

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BSW | March 11, 2009 1:16 PM | Reply

Tatevik,
Obviously I fully agree with you...The only reason I mentioned that part of original post was the total hysteria for a cople of weeks among many Russian speaking bloggers who claimed that the girls' protest was targeting virginity itself, was against "high moral standards" of our society, was calling on our virgins on starting sexual relations with everyone and everywhere, even without love...And that all was presented there in the most disgusting ways, using the most derogatory terms, mocking not only girls' march but their appearance, behaviour. Funnily these bloggers, mostly "men" portrayed themselves as brave/cool/laidback/holier than thou "saviours" of our nation while girls "turned out" to be ...well, this is clearly not the right place to use filthy, dirty language even if they are just quotes...I was astonished to see really very low quality posts from actually very clever guys...Even more I was suprised to see how many people applauded and encouraged them...Luckily it was not always the case...There were also bloggers who although didn't agree with the march but was against talking about the girls in such a nasty way...
Interesting thing is that those who were for "traditions", "high moral values"
were exactly those who were discussing girls in that way...
WTG...

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 11, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply

Mikael jan
I will not answer to your childish sentences.
By the way, I'm really glad, that most of armenian population share my views and ideas(as it can be seen from the discussions in my and others blog,people reactions on the streets during the demonstration).
We armenians needs to decide what we will accept from Europe and what from Asia based on our own culture and traditions.
Best
Tigran

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Onnik Krikorian | March 11, 2009 2:21 PM | Reply

Tigran, I think none of us disagree with your comments that Armenia is a traditional country. However, when you say that Armenians need to decide what they accept from Europe and Asia you overlook one fact. That is, you and a few others (all men apart from one) were unwilling to allow a small group of women to rally on International Women's Day in support of their legally and constitutionally allowed rights.

Instead, as I've suggested before, while they should be free to put their position forwards in the interest of stimulating an informed debate on a wide range of gender issues, you are entitled to put forward yours. However, turning up at the rally to "participate" in it (only as far has to openly mock your fellow citizens and their supporters from the Diaspora as well as to shout out disruptive slogans) does not seem very correct.

That doesn't sound like the right way to allow Armenians to decide anything and again shows just how little tolerance exists for others to freely express their own opinions in society. Nevertheless, as Armenia has made it clear that it's path is towards closer integration with Europe, I am sure this will change. However, this likely to take a few generations.

Meanwhile, by all means let Armenians decide for themselves, but from where I'm sitting, this doesn't sound as though that's possible when mainly men dictate to women rather than allow themselves to be in control of their own lifestyle. It's why I continue to refer to society here as being patriarchal. Interestingly, this trend is on the increase since the collapse of the former Soviet Union.

An Interview with Lise Grande

Lise Grande is the Residential Representative of the United Nations (UN) and Country Representative of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in Armenia. She was recruited as a political officer for the United Nations in 1994 and is due to complete her mission in Armenia at the end of May 2005.

[...]

OK: What about gender issues? Do you think that the time is right to tackle this very sensitive issue in a male-dominated society?

LG: No, we think that the time is necessary. We're not making any more progress on this issue than we were five years ago but one of the points that is quite noticeable about the collapse of the Soviet Union is that you had the “evacuation” of women from the public sphere. This is not so true in international organizations, the media and NGOs, however, and while women could not hold their former positions in government they certainly found a home in these institutions. In a sense, we've become a bastion for highly qualified women who are unable to secure positions elsewhere.

Patriarchy is a pretty slippery thing although I wouldn't call myself a feminist. All of the countries of the South Caucasus have patriarchal structures which pre-existed communism when many male-centric practices were reversed in the public sphere although I don't think that you can claim this to be the case in the family. Regardless, when communism collapsed and these countries moved into the period of transition, patriarchal practices in the public sphere began to reassert themselves. link

Meanwhile, I consider that society is slowly changing as the education system naturally changes to allow less restricted thought and what is happening is that the more intolerant and traditional elements in society are naturally mobilizing to prevent what they fear most -- the natural change that all societies experience over the years, decades and centuries.

At the same time, it is interesting to note that such a society equates freedom and human rights protection negatively. However, such attitudes will prevent what some of us call progress and what others consider to be detrimental to traditional cultural values.

[…] During a visit to Armenia in 2005, I interviewed leaders of several NGOs in Armenia. The consensus among them was that the typical Armenian citizen does not understand the concepts of human rights or democracy. 22 Some claimed that the typical Armenian understands human rights to contain western, anti-national, and anti-traditional ideas such as the protection of the rights of homosexuals and other ideas that serve to erode Armenian culture. By democracy, most noted that Armenians understand the concept to entail not much more than voting for the president, or as one interview subject noted, electing the “king.” These groups are working to increase awareness of violations of human rights taking place in the country and to educate people on how to be participatory citizens. However, they remain on the margins of society, with power concentrated among government leaders and oligarchs. link

Even so, as reforms take shape in the education sector and as legislation is adopted to facilitate a new environment, I am sure the situation will eventually change. However, it is amusing to think that those bloggers protesting such rallies appear to fear one thing more than any other -- democracy as well as freedom of expression, thought and belief.

Is that really allowing Armenians to determine their own identity and future?

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K. replied to comment from Tigran Kocharyan | March 11, 2009 3:33 PM | Reply

Hmmm...... And what about stoning adulterous women (look it up in the Old Testament)? Perhaps we should bring back that 'tradition' as well? There are many traditions in the bible - who decides which ones survive and die?

If we were to listen to some in this forum, we would indeed still be stuck in the stone age, ranting on about 'tradition'. 'Traditions' have no instrinsic value, they're just ways of doing things. Nothing prevents you from freely deciding you will do things differently.

As far as women's virginity is concerned - I cannot see how the hell it would matter whether or not a woman has slept with someone before her marriage. Some say pre-marital sex comes with many dangers - desn't the same apply to the men who engage in it? Doesn't that make the current situation doubly unfair - women are supposed to remain 'clean' for their men, who in turn ARE allowed to sleep around before marriage, possibly exposing their innocent wives to the risks of gonorrea etc...? Sounds somewhat unfair, doesn't it?

And then the idea that red apples are about free choice. For many women, they definitely are not. The inability to produce red apples after the first wedding night is something that terrifies many Armenian women, who are not judged by those aspects of their character that actually matter, but on the sick obsession of their male counterparts with being the first two 'deflower' them. Where does this obsession come from? Probably from low self-esteem; if you really ARE a man, you'll feel secure enough in your relationship with your non-virgin wife.

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Sarkis | March 11, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply

Onnik...

As I feel this is a simple question you can either answer it with a yes/no or a longer response if you feel it necessary.

Would it not be better (meaning: more productive to the health of Armenian culture, family and the individual) if instead of promoting "a sexual revolution" and demonstrating against the "traditional and patriarchial" expectations upon girls to maintian their virginity until marriage, you (and those individuals) promoted the abstenance of men as well?

I get a bitter feeling in my mouth when I see such actions because I feel that those individuals are seeking (although sometimes un-knowingly) to create a cycle of hostility. Simple put... "okay if you men can get away with it (sex before marriage), than why cant women... we will show them." DOWN WITH THE RED APPLE!!!

Why not rather say "all individuals must keep their abstenance until marriage. Since this IS THE 'MOST' HEALTHY WAY a relationship can progress.

In life all individuals demonstrate against what they feel threatens who they are and their way of life. Meaning:
- the gay man fights the straight man
- the black man fights the wight man
- the short man fights the tall man
- the ugly man fights the handsom man
- the poor man fights the wealthy man
- the sexually experienced fight the sexually in-experienced
- the non-virgins fight the virgins
- those who were the product of many one night stands fight against those who were not such a product...

Instead of instigating peace, you really instigate a 'revolution of preversity and cultural degeneration.'

Rather than supporting the sexual health of men who have deviated from the principles of a healthy sexual individual (abstenance, contraceptives, etc.. for men), you are seeking (sometimes un-knowingly) to bring women also down to that level.

Thanks

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Sarkis replied to comment from K. | March 11, 2009 9:57 PM | Reply

hhhhh,,,

"UNFAIR" hmm. Is that what you said....

So could you please tell me... what is this whole discussion about (Onnik, anyone).

Is it about:
- FAIRNESS
- VIRGINITY
- THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY
- DOUBLE STANDARDS
- ETC
- ETC

exactly what is this about! Becuase when someone speaks to you (Onnik) about tradition you immediately evade and state that this is about 'right to assemble.' Then when another says what about health, you say 'double standards.' Then another says Virginity you say 'what about fairness.'

Please stop the posturing and and tell us what you seek to promote through your actions. Or is this a personal vendetta,,, certain men wont marry you because you are not a virgin so you feel that you must demean and insult those that are virgins or those who wish to marry virgins?

Personally I feel that America and Europe are the most emotionally sick nations in the world. They claim to have reached the peak of progression, yet they battle daily with depression, STDs, lack of love and happiness, etc.

WHY MUST WE MODEL Armenia after Europe or America. Could you peole not imagine a country that is modeled by Armenians,,, or do we constantly need europe and america to tell us about morality and progress. They may be in 2009 in terms of technology,,, but emotionally and health wise those nations are in the 13th century.

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Sarkis replied to comment from Onnik Krikorian | March 11, 2009 10:17 PM | Reply

haha... "democratic countries"

is that what you said Onnik jan?

You obviously idolize those 'democratic nations'... the ones who slaughter thousands of women and children with their "bombs of freedom" and those that destroy families and have the highest prostitution rate in the world. The most racist and discriminatory nation in the world, they neither support gays nor lesbians. Just becuase they allow gay clubs you feel that they are so progressive.

I have seen girls in america who in one night have given oral sex to ten guys. who after lose their soles and any sense of morality. Girls who do drugs every single day with their bf's, girls who engage in lesbian acts in front of groups.

IS THIS THE SOCIETY YOU JUSTIFY, THE SOCIETY YOU WISH FOR ARMENIA?

And yes, the 'burial of the red apple' will only be the beginning to increased sexual preversness, deviance, pornography, etc.

Once a girl also asked me "do you seriously want a virgin girl." upon not even allowing me to respond she stated "Armenian guys are just crazy for wanting that, why wouldn't you want a girl who is experienced."
Well that girl is surely VERY VERY EXPERIENCED. Its her personal vendetta to make individuals come down to her level.

I see this as the same thing as bribery. They make everyone take part in it, so they can not be morally prosecuted, so they can feel better that they are not the only one. Same thing with these people. They have made foolish mistakes, and rather then admit and lead a healthier life and move on,,, no no, 'iranc eshnen kshum' (they are driving their jackass).

I say... bull$hit... there is better things to rally for than a protest against virginity or the culture of virginity.

thanks

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Onnik Krikorian replied to comment from Sarkis | March 11, 2009 10:44 PM | Reply

As I feel this is a simple question you can either answer it with a yes/no or a longer response if you feel it necessary.

Would it not be better (meaning: more productive to the health of Armenian culture, family and the individual) if instead of promoting "a sexual revolution" and demonstrating against the "traditional and patriarchial" expectations upon girls to maintian their virginity until marriage, you (and those individuals) promoted the abstenance of men as well?

Sarkis, I am not going to tell anyone what to do when it comes to their own bodies. However, I do suggest that individual freedoms -- as protected by the constitution -- are of paramount importance. Meanwhile, there needs to be proper education on matters such as gender and sexuality to make an informed choice and also to safeguard themselves.

I get a bitter feeling in my mouth when I see such actions because I feel that those individuals are seeking (although sometimes un-knowingly) to create a cycle of hostility. Simple put... "okay if you men can get away with it (sex before marriage), than why cant women... we will show them." DOWN WITH THE RED APPLE!!!

No, you're missing the point entirely. Most of those same men who protest such demonstrations are the same who say or do nothing about the fact that most Armenian men visit prostitutes and cheat on or beat their wives during marriage and do nothing to protest the trafficking of women from Armenia to Turkey and the UAE.

Rather than supporting the sexual health of men who have deviated from the principles of a healthy sexual individual (abstenance, contraceptives, etc.. for men), you are seeking (sometimes un-knowingly) to bring women also down to that level.

This is your own moral judgment. There is the law, and there is the constitution. There is also the matter of equality as citizens of the Republic of Armenia. Ultimately, each citizen has the right to their own personal freedom, as guaranteed by the constitution, and the right to have access to those services and information to protect their health.


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Onnik Krikorian replied to comment from Sarkis | March 11, 2009 10:53 PM | Reply

You obviously idolize those 'democratic nations'... the ones who slaughter thousands of women and children with their "bombs of freedom" and those that destroy families and have the highest prostitution rate in the world. The most racist and discriminatory nation in the world, they neither support gays nor lesbians. Just becuase they allow gay clubs you feel that they are so progressive.

Sarkis, you're going to have a shock when you ever visit Armenia. This is a country that kills it own citizens during protests to fight against falsified elections, and which has probably the most visible prostitution rate compared to any city I've lived in the West, including London. Indeed, many believe the police work with the prostitutes here, hence why they are allowed to loiter close to the Opera.

I say... bull$hit... there is better things to rally for than a protest against virginity or the culture of virginity.

The rally was to promote gender equality, protest domestic violence, and the red apple ceremony was a private affair. Ultimately, I see the two sides boiling down to this. Nationalist, mainly male xenophobes (and probably sexists) who support authoritarianism and decry the idea of individual freedom, and those who do not.

Now, rather than say "there is better things to rally for than a protest against virginity or the culture of virginity" a question for you. Does that also apply to those who seek to prevent others from voiceing their opinion and who speak out only about human rights abuses against Armenians in other countries but justify or deny even worse violations in Armenia itself?

Meanwhile, rather than attack those you disagree with, why not allow them the right -- as stipulated by legislation and the constitution -- to live their own lives? Of course, ultimately, the argument is very simple. It is between those who support the idea of an undemocratic, authoritarian, patriarchal and human rights abusive state and those who do not.

It is indeed an argument between those people who value individual freedoms and human rights versus those who prefer traditional values which naturally change, but who are most persistent in making sure that they do not. Interestingly, looking at all the exchanges above, it is a battle between men (with few women supporters) and women (with many more male supporters).

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Onnik Krikorian | March 11, 2009 11:07 PM | Reply

And I think this is the main point. Those against the International Women's Day are, drum roll please... men.

While, albeit with many more male supporters of their position then women supporting the anti-gender rights protesters, those in favor of the rally are...

women.

Say no more. A patriarchal and chauvinist society resistance to change (regardless of what society wants) is the reality, and that seems to be borne out here.

If that wasn't the case, these few men and one women wouldn't have taken it upon themselves to disrupt a legally and constitutionally permitted rally.

Basically, these people are scared of change and would like Armenia to remain isolated from progress in its own little blockaded bubble.

That's their right, of course, but attempting to silence other voices and prevent open discussion on the matter is very definitely not to be welcomed.

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Tigran Kocharyan | March 12, 2009 5:01 AM | Reply

Onnik
Since you ar going slightly mad/c/,let's stop this discussion.
No one want to abuse women rights here in Armenia.
As Rouben told we went just to mock this stupid idea to bury "red apple"
We have this right and we mock any stupid protest in future.
About killing people.
Last year one student was killed in GB just because he seemed to be "suspicious" by policeman.
Shootings in the school in US and Germany.
Killing people in North Ireland.
Cannibalism in Germany.
There are too mane other examples of barbarism in Western countries.
Enormous increase of heroin production in Afganistan after US started to control this country.
Of course all countries need progress.
But it is up to them which way to select.

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Mikael | March 12, 2009 10:48 AM | Reply

Tigran jan,
It's ok, you don't have to asnwer my "childish sentences"
I know very well that you yourself don't believe
in all the "red apple" bullshit.
Because, as I said, believing in "Red Apple" means believing that
every woman who has ever had sex before marriage is "a whore",
which I am sure is not your opinion.
Of course if you are the person that I know, and not someone else with the same name.

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Onnik Krikorian | March 12, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply

Tigran, there's nothing mad in what I said unless you mean that you consider talk of equal rights and individual freedom something "crazy" even though it is the basis for the State as defined by the constitution.

Regarding all of the other issues you mention, sure, problems all around the world which is why we have a media and a civil society that works in covering and resolving such issues.

However, here in Armenia, it is precisely those groups you attack. Meanwhile, you have every right to mock and even protest, but not from within someone else's rally. That is not mature and it's also not responsible.

That is called a provocation.

Like I said, you are free to mock, just as you did on your Pigh blog when Amnesty International published its damning report on domestic violence in Armenia. Everyone knows it happens and is a problem, but you again attacked those who tried to highlight the fact.

The world’s oldest Christian nation may have many things to be proud about, but when it comes to women’s rights the ex-Soviet Armenia is possibly in denial. With widespread human trafficking as its worst manifestation, violence against women in Armenia is alarming the world. Will a recent Amnesty International report detailing domestic abuse and government inaction bring about change?

[...]

Armenia-based blogger Pigh, however, writes sarcastically that he is going to hit every fourth woman in Armenia in order to support Amnesty International’s claims that one in four Armenian women are physically abused. link

Anyway, it seems as though you are against facing up to problems in society, especially when it comes to discrimination and violence against women. Indeed, all of these arguments against the women seem to sound an awful lot like mysogyny to me.

Regardless, civil society and the media performs a certain role in countering various problems and social ills. Here in Armenia, however, not only do you attempt to cover up those ills, you protest the very same groups and institutions meant to combat them.

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BSW | March 12, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply

On violence against women...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v71EfWQtc1c&feature=channel_page

Onnik,

Do these activists have their blogs, anything where we can see their reports, pics?

While your and others' comments are educational for many I am afraid u r flogging a dead horse with radicals. Why don't these activists or any other future "victims" equip themselves with photocameras, video cameras and give these bullies the taste of their own medicine? They love to take pics of others and go wild with disgustinng comments, I am sure they will not mind others doing the same... As Russians say:" Krome loma net priema... okromya drugogo loma"...
Not to mention what a video might come out of all available comments on the bullies' and their supporters blogs...They r not only bullying activists but also any other fellow Armenians who don't comply to their "high moral standards" I guess...

I don't mind their political views but I can't stand bullies...
If anything is done to stop these bullies count me in...


http://www.youtube.com/user/BeautySavesWorld


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Onnik Krikorian | March 12, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply

Well, for one, I wouldn't advise anyone to adopt the same tactics which are unreasonable, to say the least, when they could have organized their own rally to communicate their message rather than infiltrate someone else's to disrupt it.

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Ani | March 12, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply

I'm reposting my comment from Observer's blog here, because I think maybe it will cut through the fog--at least I hope so!

I think most have misinterpreted both the custom of the Red Apple and its burial. What does the Red Apple actually symbolize? If you answered “virginity,” no, that’s wrong. What it symbolizes is Proof of Virginity, of literally “airing one’s laundry in public,” of a public warranty of a girl’s virginity. Here’s why that’s so bad.

Let’s say for argument’s sake that Armen wants to marry Ani. That’s an equal statement; you can also say that Ani wants to marry Armen. But now change that statement to: Armen wants to marry a Virgin. Suddenly, instead of a person, Armen has gone shopping for a commodity. Instead of valuing Ani as an individual, he is looking for an item. And a number of Items are available to him. Now let’s say that Ani, for whatever reason (maybe an uncle sexually molested her) is not a Virgin. She may be the perfect, witty match in all other ways for Armen, but since he wants a Virgin Ani will not do. So instead he opts for the witless dolt Gayane. Armen and Gayane get married, she is definitely a Virgin, white sheets can be hung up for everyone’s entertainment. Does happiness follow?

Because Armen always viewed Gayane as a commodity (virgin), and that commodity was time-limited, what is Gayane to Armen now? Surely not an equal partner in this marriage! So Gayane becomes some other commodity to Armen--with luck a mother, or perhaps housekeeper, laundress, cook, and very likely, because Armen is unhappy and frustrated, Gayane becomes also a Punching Bag. Would it not have been better for everyone if, instead of shopping for a Virgin, Armen and Ani, a perfect match but for Ani’s non-virginity, had gotten married? And if not for a custom like the Red Apple, who would have known? And why is it the community’s business whether or not Ani is a Virgin anyway? To see dirty linen hanging imaginatively invites the community into the bedroom of Armen and Ani; do you really want them there? And isn’t that what Paris Hilton’s sex tape can satisfy for those who need such entertainment?

So that, guys, is why you’ve misinterpreted this symbol: it really has nothing to do as to whether the ladies want to stay virgins or not, and what the organizers said, after all, was this: “don’t give up and think you’re powerless,” women need equal rights opportunities and a life free of violence, not flowers on March 8th.” Makes sense now, I hope?

And an interesting thing happened on the march: Tigran was himself objectified, and instead of being Tigran, he was called a Fascist. And Tigran didn’t like this objectification a bit…

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Onnik Krikorian | March 12, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply

And an interesting thing happened on the march: Tigran was himself objectified, and instead of being Tigran, he was called a Fascist. And Tigran didn’t like this objectification a bit…

Ani, well that's something encouraging -- the fact that Tigran doesn't want to identify with fascists and reacts in horror to being called one. Sure, the ideology does remind me of many nationalists I've met here and in the Diaspora, but we're thankfully not there yet, and I hope we never will be.

There is at least a multi-party system of sorts (albeit mainly pro-government) and presidents do change, although there are many similarities especially when it comes to collective identity over individual freedom. The militaristic tendency is also not the policy of the present government, even if some nationalists wish it were.

Nevertheless, this paragraph sounds strikingly similar to how nationalists view the "ideal" being for Armenia, and in a sense is part of the argument over national and ethnic tradition and ideology as opposed to freedom of the individual regardless of gender etc.

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement, viewing all dissenters as enemies to be destroyed. Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective nation or race (democracy, individualism, liberalism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (internationalism, communism, class conflict, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and empowers people deemed weak and degenerate (egalitarianism); that seek to preserve institutions and values that restrict the social or biological development and unity of a nation or race (conservatism); and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism). link

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Margarita Aghasyan replied to comment from artmika | March 14, 2009 4:48 AM | Reply

hahaha it must have been funny:))))
I don't really think that with this 'ritual' something will really be changed in minds of our Armenians, but in any case, the idea is brave and interesting enough!!! :)

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Major Scarlet | April 18, 2009 6:53 PM | Reply

Life isn't fair. some people are born women, some men. there is a time honored reason for women to be virgins. it meant that women could be trusted after marriage to not cheat and possibly carry another man's baby. times have changed and we have birth control.. so now everyone joins the secular progressive view that life must be fair for women. women should be allowed the freedom to have sex just like a man.. but life isn't fair. by the time most american women have graduated college, you can drive a truck through their vaginas. ruined for the average man.. but boy was it fun for the girl right? there is a price to pay to look at your husband and wonder if he think your vagina is too large. and he does. see, life isn't fair. if it was, we'd all be born the same sex, same size, etc. in the states, we are approaching an all time high in divorces. coincidence? possibly but the timing fits. sexual revolution along with the divorce revolution. my advise,quit whining and respect life as it is, not how you wish it would be. that's self-delusion.

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Kostya | April 30, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply

I am surprised to see that armenians speak in english, wow what a surprise! and as always they're al demagogues)))

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lucy | March 12, 2010 3:19 AM | Reply

u people discust me! how low can u guys get AMOT DZEZI

What do you think?